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Unthinkable...
Topic Started: Jun 26 2010, 04:29 PM (298 Views)
Ragana Jun 26 2010, 04:29 PM Post #1
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 Not sure how many of you seen this film (which is simply amazing, go to your nearest Red Box, Blockbuster, etc.. and get it)

The scenario is this: A man plants three nuclear bombs in three major American cities. Is it alright to torture him to get information? How far should one go? Is family and friends off-limits? Do we sacrifice one life to save thousands?
Some food for your thought..

I'll go off whoever replies to this first.
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"A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day. An hour of woes and shattered shields, when the age of men comes crashing down! But it is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good Earth, I bid you- stand, Men of the West! "
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decurser Jun 26 2010, 05:29 PM Post #2
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 IMO u do whatever you can to get the information on the bombs, because the lives of the few people involved doesnt compare to the millions of people who would be effected by the explosion/fall out.
Hló Hlórriða hugr í brjósti, er harðhugaðr hamar of þekkði; Þrym drap hann fyrstan, þursa dróttin, ok ætt jötuns alla lamði. Drap hann ina öldnu jötna systur,
hin er brúðféar of beðit hafði; hon skell of hlaut fyr skillinga, en högg hamars fyr hringa fjölð. Svá kom Óðins sonr endr at hamri.
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kowa Jun 26 2010, 09:24 PM Post #3
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decurser
Jun 26 2010, 05:29 PM
IMO u do whatever you can to get the information on the bombs, because the lives of the few people involved doesnt compare to the millions of people who would be effected by the explosion/fall out.
I agree we should be allowed to torture any1 suspected of threats against us Americans. I mean we Americans can say one thing and do completely the opposite of that as long as we are safe.

Remember what they say "Guilty until proven Innocent"

oh wait... ;)
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"You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep." ~Navajo Proverb
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TexanForLife Jun 27 2010, 11:15 AM Post #4
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 Seriously I don't expect many to relish the thought of torturing anyone who is innocent, but if they are connected to this guy then we really don't have a choice. A few for millions, I think that would be the most responsible thing we could possibly do. But I am also a patriotic southerner so not everyone would agree with me.
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aykashioni Jun 27 2010, 11:44 AM Post #5
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 Haven't seen the film, but I can say I have an educated opinion as to the effectiveness of torture to save lives in the real world.

Given that just about any "professional" in the interrogation field will tell you that the only intel you coerce through torture is lies and anything at all to make the pain stop(Seldom the truth from someone who hates you), take Khalid Sheik Muhammad and many others as an example of that (do your own research on that, turns out he didnt say a lick of truth under "torture" and infact led us around like the idiots we were for expecting anything else).Also you can observe in real world application that in many interrogations that involve lying about giving the "suspect" anything they may want (In a recent case offering falsely to bring a suspects family to the US made this f***er sing) and it is real intel, unlike in most torturous and drugged out interrogation situations.

I truly dont buy the really really blatantly stupid and ignorant "Jack bauer", hollywood "torture saves lives" in any scenario BS propaganda that gets shoved down our throats in the US and alot of Europe on a damn near constant basis, and really some people just dont at all understand the old and very based in simple and Commonsense saying "you catch more flies with honey", truly in the field its proven faaaaar more effective than torture in numerous occasions.

So morality aside, I believe and many others more professional than I also believe that its not effective for collecting ANY kind of useful intel in just about ANY situation.
Dont believe me here's a quick(Of many examples) and very experienced soldier's professional opinion morality aside....

"listen to Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm, and who was sent by the Pentagon in 2003 -- long before Abu Ghraib -- to assess interrogations in Iraq. Aside from its immorality and its illegality, says Herrington, torture is simply "not a good way to get information." In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop."



But hope it was a good and at the least "thought provoking" flick : p
Will try and give it a watch!

respectfully,
Alex


Edited by aykashioni, Jun 27 2010, 12:10 PM.
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Tiltowait Jun 28 2010, 11:35 AM Post #6
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 a classic black and white vs shades of gray issue. I think it comes down more to which side of the arguement appeals to the individual more rather than which side is 'right'. In this case, one side being right does not make the other side wrong, both arguements have valid points.


On the black and white side, math. 1% chance that your suspect tells the truth (as opposed to making up something) and you find a bomb and save 10,000 people's lives means that for every 1 person you torture, innocent or guilty, you save 100. This arguement is a pretty easy sell, hence the prevelance of torture.

*edited to add: It's hard to empthaise this enough- with this logic, if you think there is a 1% chance, just the slimiest chance in the world, that someone is guilty of planting a bomb, they should be tortured. With the exact same arguement.*



Shades of grey side you have personal morality (if you approve of it, would you hold the knife?), societal morality (when we torture for one reason, why not another?), justice (no time for a trial, clocks ticking!), potential for corruption (Bob got promoted over me, I think he's hiding a bomb), etc.

It seems to me that the latter is a more humane attitude, and much rarer. We can see now and throughout history the results of the black/white side governing, and it's not pretty.
Edited by Tiltowait, Jun 28 2010, 11:43 AM.
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Grayghost Oct 3 2011, 06:54 PM Post #7
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 Quote from ST2:WoK

Kirk: "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few...."

Spock: "or the one."
Edited by Grayghost, Oct 3 2011, 07:23 PM.
~ Grayghost ~
"The Wise Man learns from the mistakes of others. The Fool fails to learn from even his own ... "
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